"One of the great strengths of the United States is ... we have a very large Christian population -- we do not consider ourselves a Christian nation or a Jewish nation or a Muslim nation. We consider ourselves a nation of citizens who are bound by ideals and a set of values." - President ObamaI'll have to admit, I have been thinking about President Obama's statement for the last couple days. I understand his point, however, I do not believe it is worded correctly. At least I will give him the benefit of the doubt. I tend to believe that President Obama took into consideration his audience before he made his statement, but once again - I will give him the benefit of the doubt.
-
Our country is a great and strong country with an undying freedom. That undying freedom gives us the freedom to worship whatever/whomever/whenever we choose. However, our country's ideals and values are based upon Christian principles.
-
I find it odd that our National cemeteries contain crosses. I find it strange that our Pledge of Allegiance states we are "One nation under God." I find it ironic that our country's leader takes the oath of office on the Holy Bible. I also find it ironic that the highest court in the land has the Ten Commandments chiseled into the building's composition. I am also reminded daily of our nation's history when I look at our currency - In God We Trust.
-
I guess, according to President Obama's statement, we might need to re-think all of those inaccuracies. Right?...or...Left?
10 comments:
This is an easy trap to fall into. However:
1) Freedom to worship whatever/whomever/whenever we choose is a basic tenet of our social contract, but it is opposed to the basic tenets of Christianity which worships a jealous god who will not suffer any other gods..etc etc etc.
The implication is that the founding fathers identified with the concept of America as distinct from identifying with their respective faiths. Have we lost that capability today? Is it more accurate to say that America forces a choice between your country and your religion or that your religion forces a choice of your religion over your country?
2) Our national cemeteries contain Christian crosses where there are dead Christians under them. Where there are other faiths, there are other symbols:
http://www.arlingtoncemetery.org/funeral_information/authorized_emblems.html
3) Our pledge of allegiance did not contain the phrase 'One nation under God' until 1954 in the middle of the second red scare.
4) 'In God We Trust' did not appear on paper currency until about the same time and for presumably the same reasons.
Question:
Given that eh nation was founded as a secular state, how is it 'right' to advertise a specific religion on the state currency?
How would we as a country feel about chainging the motto to 'Allah be praised'? Would it not be reasonable to concede that 'In God we trust' is equally misplaced?
Chris,
Thanks for your comments. You forgot to respond to taking the oath on the Holy Bible and the reference to the Supreme Court. The list of references to God in our Government would very long. I would think we would both agree that no one MAKES you worship anyone, anything or any god in the US. However, this country's values and principles are based upon Christianity. Even the wording of the Constitution one would find terminology such as "Creator" that would be contrary to many religions. But to say that our government force feeds anyone that particular doctrine would be absurd. It is merely the history of our nation. I imagine it would be completely different if you were living in Russia, China or Germany.
Again, Christians take an oath on a bible, Mulsims take it on the Koran, etc etc. An atheist President would simply raise his hand.
As for Christian principles, I have 2 thoughts:
1) Most of the principles that Christians lay a proprietary claim to regarding the founding of the country precede Christianity, so I am not sure how that is possible.
2) The Magna Carta, the works of John Locke, the Mayflower compact, Ancient Athenian city states represent the superset of sources for the Constitution.
3) The treaty of tripoli unanimously ratified in the Senate in 1797 and signed into lay by John Adams, states, and I quote:
"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." Its pretty hard to misread that, in my opinion.
3) Of course the most damning evidence is the fact that most of the FF were Unitarians or Deists, which is most interesting as both reject the divinity of Jesus Christ and the supernatural elements of the old and new testaments.
4) God is not in the constitution except in the reference 'In the year of our lord' which was the contemporary way of expressing the date, ala 1789 AD.
Chris,
You are correct in the fact that every founding father was not a Christian. However, the majority - not the minority were Christians. I don't know if you are understanding my point or not. I don't believe our country endorses one certain religion or forces anyone to do so. My only point is to say that our country's foundations were laid by Christian principles.
Here are some quotes by some of the founding father "dream teamers". It's hard to come to the conclusion that Christianity is not part of their lives.
John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]
John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress
Alexander Hamilton: "For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]
"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."
Patrick Henry: “It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
“The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed.”
Thomas Jefferson: “Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”
James Madison: At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”
James Wilson - Signer of the constitution: "Christianity is part of the common law"
George Washington: “ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”
Also a trivia fact for you: The Liberty Bell has a Bible verse inscripted on it. That's strange IF the Bible had no impact on the founding fathers. “Proclaim liberty throughout the land and to all the inhabitants thereof” [Leviticus 25:10]
To your point: that our country's foundations were laid by Christian principles.
1) Is it your point to claim sole ownership of the principles for christianity? Are you intimating that morality is a christian invention? Do you acknowledge that christians share principles of morality with other religions? If one acknowledges that morality exists outside of the boundaries of any specific religious practice, and one recognizes that the founding fathers were comprised of deists, unitarians, atheists, and different flavors of christians, how can the founding of the country be attributed to christianity?
2) You must be aware that the prime motivator for many seeking to settle in the new world was religious persecution. Are you also aware that this persectution was being eacted on christians by christians? The christian principle at play was the conviction, held by Protestants and Catholics alike, that uniformity of religion must exist in any given society. This conviction rested on the belief that there was one true religion and that it was the duty of the civil authorities to impose it, forcibly if necessary, in the interest of saving the souls of all citizens.
Is it possible given this history, that the founding fathers founded the country with the idea of religious freedom baked in not as a result of christian principles, but as a protection against this christian principle?
3) It is interesting to note that freedom of religion was a controversial issue in the founding fathers time in part because the religious persecution of Europe had come to the individual sates as well and existed even after the signing of the Declaration of Independence. Suffice it to say it was a 'living issue' to the FF.
Of these Founding Fathers, it was James Madison, the father of the constitution who was the most prolific advocate for freedom of religion as expressed by the distinct separation of church and state:
The experience of the United States is a happy disproof of the error so long rooted in the unenlightened minds of well-meaning Christians, as well as in the corrupt hearts of persecuting usurpers, that without a legal incorporation of religious and civil polity, neither could be supported. A mutual independence is found most friendly to practical Religion, to social harmony, and to political prosperity and
The settled opinion here is, that religion is essentially distinct from civil Government, and exempt from its cognizance; that a connection between them is injurious to both; 4 Again getting back to your original post, what are 'all of those inaccuracies' that need re-thinking?
There is seperation between church and state today. I don't believe we are debating that issue. At least I'm not. I can keep posting as many quotes as you want from the founding the fathers stating the importance of the Bible and Christianity. You can try to pose abstract questions and think of conspiracy theories about the situation, however, when you have the majority of the founding fathers stating the importance of the Bible - it's hard to debate what they thought and what they had at heart. That is my point.
Bible verse inscription on the Liberty Bell? Has our country been in error all this years. Get that verse off there.
Ten Commandments formed into the Supreme court? You didn't respond to that as well.
Our money does say in God we trust. Whether that happened yesterday or 200 years ago, it reflects our Christian principles.
Sworn in on Bible: You are correct. It depends on the religion. I believe 1 time a President was sworn in on a Catholic mass reading. Another president was sworn in on a book of rules. George Washington set the example. Read the account of George's swearing in.
I have researched the cemetaries. I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
I wish you the best. This is my last post on the topic.
You seem to put a lot of stock in that liberty bell passage as if it were somehow germane to your assertion that the country was founded on christian principles, and to the passage from the ten commandments on the walls of the Supreme Court as if that was chiseled there by Thomas Jefferson.
I don't want to get into a tit for tat on every example so I responded to the ones I felt were stronger and ignored those for expediency.
I certainly do not lack for quotes from founding fathers on the topic, but again, not interested in the tit for tat angle.
I will ask you once more to respond to my main rebuttal to your original post as follows.
1) Is it your point to claim sole ownership of the principles for christianity? Are you intimating that morality is a christian invention? Do you acknowledge that christians share principles of morality with other religions? If one acknowledges that morality exists outside of the boundaries of any specific religious practice, and one recognizes that the founding fathers were comprised of deists, unitarians, atheists, and different flavors of christians, how can the founding of the country be attributed to christianity?
I can understand if you don't care to continue, but would find it enlightening if you would.
As a side note, the whole reason I stumbled on your blog because I was researching sites to see if the domain were taken. I think the most important aspect of a discussion is the ability of either side to acknowledge that they could be wrong when considering the points of others.
I could be wrong, but... said...
Chris,
Per your request, I'll give you one more response. I feel like we are beating a dead horse here.
From a personal perspective, yes, morality began with Christ. He led the perfect life and gave all mankind a "living" example of morality. Salvation is found through him. However, Christ never forced anyone to believe on him. He gave everyone the ability and freedom to choose whether to serve him or not. I strongly believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God.
I understand the topic of this post is regarding the country and not our individual faiths. Morality must have a point of origin. For Christians it's Christ. If you were in another country that did not embrace the Christian faith, the morality of that nation would probably not be analagous to Christianity. Thus, when you look to our forefathers and read their convictions for the Bible, their convictions were for Christ - How can you not draw the conclusion that the Bible had an huge impact on our country's values and morals?
If you study much on George Washington, it will not take you very long to find out what he felt about Christ and the Bible. Since he was the 1st president of this great nation, IF his ideas and beliefs were SO radical - why would he had received the graces to become the country's 1st president?
Inscriptions on the Liberty Bell and the Ten Commandments built into our Highest court in the land...I guess your reasoning is coincidence? Those 2 symbols stand for Freedom and Justice in our land and the building blocks of our great nation.
Like I stated in the original post, no one is force fed Christianity. We live in a free country. The best country in the world as a matter of fact. And it allows us the liberty to worship whatever/whomever/whenever we choose. However, to deny that Christianity played huge role in founding of this country is absurd.
Chris, thanks for your comments and the discussion.
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I have enjoyed the discussion.
Post a Comment